4.2.0.0 Logical IF Bugs/Problems

[Boxcutter]

Are these bugs? Well I'm not too sure really but this problem should be classed as a bug.

Why can't any action in PM be pulled and joined to form a group under a logical IF action?

It doesn't make any sense at all. When you try to pull a action underneath it it never hooks
up so the only workaround is to pull the logical if action underneath the other action first so
it joins up to form a group and then drag the top action underneath the logical if.

Also another problem with logical if is that you can't drag and
drop it into the middle of a group like every other action.

See the video below demonstrating the first problem with 5 random
actions in PM (it has this problem with every action though)

Towards the end it also shows the problem with dragging the logical IF into the middle of a group.

Watch - http://www.screencast.com/t/7AUB8U4auzdk

BC

 

[rostonix]

Thank you.

It's not a bug. It's a part of logical architecture of a project.
You can attach IF action only to the end of the group.
Will not be fixed.

Anton

 

[Kepperbes]

Thank you.

It's not a bug. It's a part of logical architecture of a project.
You can attach IF action only to the end of the group.
Will not be fixed.

Anton

So let me make sure I understand this correctly. You say that we can only attach IF action to the end of the group, and this is based on "logical" architecture of a project. This is something that was *NOT* present in ZP3. In ZP3 we could place IF actions wherever in a template that we wanted, allowing *US*, the *USER* to modify *OUR* templates in a way that *WE* would like. So now, your saying that yet ANOTHER feature has been taken away from us, without even telling us, and this is based on what you would call "logical architecture"??? Logical based on what??!?

Im sure I am not the only person that feels this way, but I'm getting to the point where its pissing me off that the Zenno team just constantly keeps changing things under our noses without notifying US, the people who PAY for the software first. Then on top of that, not only are you going to change the software around, but your going to tell us the way that *WE* want to use the software is not "logical"??!? GTFO. Here is something that any successful business owner knows, and is something that I think needs to become understood by the Zenno team; THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

During the beta phase (which IMO ZP4 STILL is in Beta considering the huge number of bugs that are still present), we werent able to drag IF actions into groups at all. Finally after requesting that it be added, we are now able to have it added into groups, but we are limited in the fashion in which we use it based on someone else's idea of what they believe to be "Logical"??!? Any other software developer LISTENS to their customers, and provides them with the features they ask for because its good customer support, something that i've spoken about time and time again to you guys, but it seems like me, DJ, Clint, and the rest of us are just wasting our breath because no matter what we say, your ideas of what should and shouldnt be will just continue to be forced on us. This is the reason why so many people are now speaking up about this software. Another thing i'd like to add, there are several other forums now that watch this forum very closely, and there are entire threads dedicated to why people WONT buy Zennoposter, simply based on how customers are being treated. Sooner or later you're going to have to realize that in the end, the only people this is going to hurt are the developers, not the users. Why? Because you'll be losing money fighting against your customers, vs. giving them what they ask for, and making it a better product.

I've been a very big fan, and advocate of Zennoposter for a very long time, but as of recently, things have been changing for the worst, not the better, and as a customer, I expect better.

 

[marl0_stanfield]

I’ve noticed this issue with the IF logic action myself and always wondered what was up. But to be honest I’ve been overwhelmed with the other issues like the under developed scheduler…

I really hope Zenno steps it up with the next build because it seems like in every build we get some surprise addition yet not an improved scheduler that is so crucial to Zenno's functionality...

 

[Boxcutter]

Thank you.

It's not a bug. It's a part of logical architecture of a project.
You can attach IF action only to the end of the group.
Will not be fixed.

Anton

Anton this is not solved, it needs be changed/fixed.

So why is the current logical architecture not perfect?

Below are 2 examples demonstrating the logical flow of a template with the current logical if architecture restrictions.

Note you are forced to use a floating logical IF action when logically there is no reason for it.

Example 1:

Current logical IF architecture restriction - http://i.imgur.com/pDKOu.jpg
Correct logical IF flow - http://i.imgur.com/nhlvG.jpg

Example 2:

Current logical IF restriction - http://i.imgur.com/dadXi.jpg
Correct logical IF flow - http://i.imgur.com/aPK3T.jpg

What is gained by forcing us to step outside the flow of a group to carry out IF actions?

The correct and logical way is to process each action in a descending order and then
step out to another action/group only If the logical IF is false.

Explain your reasoning Anton and then notify the developers about this because they will
understand exactly what I mean here since the same functionality I am asking for
is already found in every other action.

BC

 

[rostonix]

Explain your reasoning Anton and then notify the developers about this because they will
understand exactly what I mean here since the same functionality I am asking for
is already found in every other action.

Devs know about current situation. This action was designed to act this way.
IF actions can be attached to the end of action's groups to keep logic of the whole project.
It will stay this way for now. Thank you.

Anton

PS Please keep threads on topic, guys. Offtop was moved.
Thanks. Again.

 

[rostonix]

Everyday we take a lot of requests from clients. Different ones. Email, skype, forum.
Literally. A lot. Every client think that his suggestion is the most important one.

Devs read all suggestions and decide which ones will be more useful/helpful/reasonable for ALL of clients.
Not 1-2. We have a lot of them. Much more than participants on the forum.

And every new build has new features/changes/fixes. And most of them are based on feedback in emails, skype and forum.

If your request is not filled that doesn't mean that customer is not right. Or that you are ignored.
Or that we dont wanna work on software. Cause it's not true.

When you request is not filled try not to take it negatively or personally.
Thank you.

 

[Kepperbes]

Anton this is not solved, it needs be changed/fixed.

So why is the current logical architecture not perfect?

Below are 2 examples demonstrating the logical flow of a template with the current logical if architecture restrictions.

Note you are forced to use a floating logical IF action when logically there is no reason for it.

Example 1:

Current logical IF architecture restriction - http://i.imgur.com/pDKOu.jpg
Correct logical IF flow - http://i.imgur.com/nhlvG.jpg

Example 2:

Current logical IF restriction - http://i.imgur.com/dadXi.jpg
Correct logical IF flow - http://i.imgur.com/aPK3T.jpg

What is gained by forcing us to step outside the flow of a group to carry out IF actions?

The correct and logical way is to process each action in a descending order and then
step out to another action/group only If the logical IF is false.

Explain your reasoning Anton and then notify the developers about this because they will
understand exactly what I mean here since the same functionality I am asking for
is already found in every other action.

BC

This is a VERY good point Anton. It doesnt make any sense to have to create a second group for successful exits from an If action (or even a second group just for the IF action). While recording a template that involves using a text presence check ,the successful exit is always within the same group, not a second, or separated group. This is the logical flow, and how it should work. Also, what would it hurt to just go ahead and have this feature added back into Zennoposter, since were all requesting it? Im certain there are plenty of other people who would agree this is something Zennoposter should do, especially considering that it was already able to do it before.

 

[rostonix]

Logic actions is one of the hardest thing for newcomers to deal as my support experience shows.
Even if it's pretty simple: simple true or false rule. Even after you show to deal with it once. Even when you send an example. Clients are so different.

And this rule for IF action makes it look and stand visual. In small or big projects.
That's why it was decided to make it attachable only to the bottom of groups.
Because this action is importantt ant and shows where project will go next.

Thread moved to Suggestions.
But guys, we don't have plans to change it.
Take it without negative.
Thank you.

 

[Boxcutter]

Logic actions is one of the hardest thing for newcomers to deal as my support experience shows.
Even if it's pretty simple: simple true or false rule. Even after you show to deal with it once. Even when you send an example. Clients are so different.

Anyone that has used the logical if and knows how it works will immediately
see the benefit of fixing this problem (now classed as a suggestion i see)

Is it really that hard for people to wrap their head around this:

If the logical if is true the template keeps continuing down to the next action as normal
If the logical if is false it exits via the bad output to another action.

Right now you have to explain to the new clients that there are good and bad
inputs and it takes 3 times the amount of connections to do the same thing.

So from a new client point of view = It's more complicated at the moment
From every other client point of view = It doesn't make sense at the moment

And this rule for IF action makes it look and stand visual. In small or big projects.

All it does for big and small projects is get in the way by adding tons of connecting lines
that are not needed and visually making the project look messier than it is. You can't debate this fact.

While recording a template that involves using a text presence check ,the successful exit is always within the same group, not a second, or separated group.

Well Anton...how do you explain that one to all the new clients? and why did the
developers suddenly think it makes perfect sense to have the logical if inside groups in this case?

By the way my problem isn't just with adding the logical if into groups as I
showed in that video, it is adding actions to the bottom of a logical if when
it is on it's own or connected to the bottom of group as well. The worst case
of all is when you want to add a logical if to another logical if to form a group,
even the workaround does work in this case!

...why does everything have to be such a uphill battle to get something remotely useful added?

 

[CaptainObvious]

What is gained by forcing us to step outside the flow of a group to carry out IF actions?

Lets apply your logic to the following multiple choice quiz.

Question: "Whats wrong ? with this sentence"

A: Question mark in wrong spot.

B: Question mark in wrong spot.

C: Nothing wrong. Boxcutter says its ok.

.
Metaphorically, action group is a sentence and logic actions are question marks. What does logic code like (!=, ==, <) do? Asks a fucken question.

If logic is asking a question, what do you think the logical correct syntax would be ? <= hint

English grammar syntax is a best practice ideal for a boatload of modern developer frameworks, and splitting code ideas/modules/etc up into separate areas is a 60yr old battle tested good idea. But your saying its not? 0_o

Multithread POP3 much?

 

[Kepperbes]

Lets apply your logic to the following multiple choice quiz.

Question: "Whats wrong ? with this sentence"

A: Question mark in wrong spot.

B: Question mark in wrong spot.

C: Nothing wrong. Boxcutter says its ok.

.
Metaphorically, action group is a sentence and logic actions are question marks. What does logic code like (!=, ==, <) do? Asks a fucken question.

If logic is asking a question, what do you think the logical correct syntax would be ? <= hint

English grammar syntax is a best practice ideal for a boatload of modern developer frameworks, and splitting code ideas/modules/etc up into separate areas is a 60yr old battle tested good idea. But your saying its not? 0_o

Multithread POP3 much?

Hello there CaptainOblivious we meet again . I had a huge post written up and just as I was going to click the "Post Quick Reply" button, I decided that no matter what I wrote, a person like you only see's what he wants to see, regardless of if its fact or fiction. So, million dollar question that I most DEFINITELY would like to know is what exactly was your point for the above post? SURELY it was not to educate us in the intricacies of programming language and history because if that was the case, your logic failed MISERABLY by Zennoposter's own hand considering that Zennoposter 3 allowed IF actions to be grouped when and wherever, and recording templates in Zennoposter 4 places IF actions in groups by that SAME EXACT STANDARD as previous versions when doing text presence checks, and places the next successful action directly beneath the IF action in the SAME group (which is why this thread was created in the first place). So there goes your 60yr old battle tested history bullshit right out the window because more than 2 years of Zennoposter history proves that Zennolab isnt following your logic in any way, shape, fashion, or form. With that being said, it seems that you only show up when the thread is lacking useless, non-helpful posts, so I guess I cant blame you for doing what you do best.

Have a wonderful weekend.

 

[Boxcutter]

Lets apply your logic to the following multiple choice quiz.

Question: "Whats wrong ? with this sentence"

A: Question mark in wrong spot.

B: Question mark in wrong spot.

C: Nothing wrong. Boxcutter says its ok.

.
Metaphorically, action group is a sentence and logic actions are question marks. What does logic code like (!=, ==, <) do? Asks a fucken question.

If logic is asking a question, what do you think the logical correct syntax would be ? <= hint

English grammar syntax is a best practice ideal for a boatload of modern developer frameworks, and splitting code ideas/modules/etc up into separate areas is a 60yr old battle tested good idea. But your saying its not? 0_o

Multithread POP3 much?

Thanks so much CaptainObvious for enlightening me on the obvious fact
that logic code asks a "fucken" question along with the mind bending English grammar lesson...

I understand exactly what you are saying even if you are purposely making your point in such a backwards fashion.

Read and re-read what kepperbes has said above. I'm not rewriting it again for your amusement.

As for the multithreaded POP3. Considering so many of your posts revolve around the
fact that you know so much about multi threaded POP3 and everyone else is stupid if they
don't do it or know how to handle email processing your way then I can only presume
that this is another lame attempt for you to go on about the POP3 again. Save it, I don't care.

You do realize I don't think the email processing system is perfect either?

See No.7 under 'Added Idea(s)' here - http://zennolab.com/discussion/showthread.php?6725-List-of-To-Do-s-and-Feature-Ideas

Over and out Captain

 

[CaptainObvious]

your 60yr old battle tested history bullshit right out the window because more than 2 years of Zennoposter history proves that Zennolab isnt following your logic in any way, shape, fashion, or form

Meh. Negative proof is a logical fallacy </thread>. Did you miss the short-bus for Trolling 101?

Oh yeah, its not my logic, its the logic of 100's of researchers doing a crazy thing called science.

Kepperbes how about you give trolling abreak for a while, this is the 2nd time caughtout pushing bullshit theories uphill just to score troll points.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Note you are forced to use a floating logical IF action when logically there is no reason for it.

PM's visual code layout is a type of "mind map" application. Seperating ideas/concepts visually into different nodes, like a mind map, makes problem solving/debugging easier. Its been proven beyond doubt over 60yrs, but don't believe me, go have a look at the 100's of studies on google scholar pimping the advanatages of visual mapping of idea nodes, aka semantic network/mind mapping/etc.

Memory/thinking is naturally associative, aka networking of nodes, not linear. The cliche of "thinking outside the box" is about associative thinking. Your arguement for retaining logic actions in long action groups, is a arguement for linear thinking, aka, your requesting a mental handicap. Approx 90% of time spent with non-trival ZP templates (or any nontrival app in any lanuage) is spent debugging/problem solving, so its commonsence anything that stops people from painting themselves into a mental corner is a good idea.

See No.7 under 'Added Idea(s)' here - http://zennolab.com/discussion/showthread.php?6725-List-of-To-Do-s-and-Feature-Ideas

Oh yeah, your No.7 is a great illustration of one of the traps of linear thinking & not breaking ideas/concepts down into seperate nodes. Your email is getting blocked becausese your multithreading POP3 requests! Look, in your own words:

At the moment ZP has to register and then run the email action for every site you want to sign up on. If you want to use one email to signup across all the sites you will be blocked out in no time and run into problems so you are forced to use a ton of emails to try and get around it.

Mail confirm & web2.0 registration don't have to work together in the same template, thats just a assumption, your making a feature request for a problem easy solved with a seperate template. If you had the habit of breaking concepts into seperate parts, you might have destroyed the assumption reg & mail can only exist in the same template.

 

[Kepperbes]

Meh. Negative proof is a logical fallacy </thread>. Did you miss the short-bus for Trolling 101?

Wow, lol. That was a wonderful way to say absolutely nothing relevant. Who said anything about trolling? Your the idiot (yes, idiot) who wants to go on everyone's thread and talk about Pop3. Even threads that have nothing to do with Pop3 has you coming to talk about it.

Oh yeah, its not my logic, its the logic of 100's of researchers doing a crazy thing called science.

Well apparently im not the one you should be throwing the short bus comments at considering that your reading comprehension skills seem to be sub-par. It appears to me that you failed to see the overall scope of things while you were busy spewing your useless, unwanted banter. Nevertheless, the way ZP's IF actions operate completely CONTRADICT what you wrote in your above post, and you woudl've seen that had you not been so insistent upon making us all witness your quest for Pop3 supremacy. So lets see, lets have a look at a FACT:

1. CaptainOblivious writes absolutely useless post discussing IF logic, and how it relates to Zenno;
Kepperbes shows how his theory is bullshit based on the way Zennoposter 3 operates, and based on the way Zennoposter 4 operates.

So no matter what you believe, you cant honestly say Zennoposter is following your twisted made up logic when the software itself operates in a function OPPOSITE to what you say.

 

[Boxcutter]

PM's visual code layout is a type of "mind map" application. Seperating ideas/concepts visually into different nodes, like a mind map, makes problem solving/debugging easier. Its been proven beyond doubt over 60yrs, but don't believe me, go have a look at the 100's of studies on google scholar pimping the advanatages of visual mapping of idea nodes, aka semantic network/mind mapping/etc.

Memory/thinking is naturally associative, aka networking of nodes, not linear. The cliche of "thinking outside the box" is about associative thinking. Your arguement for retaining logic actions in long action groups, is a arguement for linear thinking, aka, your requesting a mental handicap. Approx 90% of time spent with non-trival ZP templates (or any nontrival app in any lanuage) is spent debugging/problem solving, so its commonsence anything that stops people from painting themselves into a mental corner is a good idea.

I use mind mapping nearly every day so I don't need you to give me a spiel about it. I'm requesting a simple addition to the current logical if architecture to accommodate all styles. Maybe you enjoy having needless connections all over your templates and loads more groups but I certainly don't.

If you want to use one email to signup across all the sites you will be blocked out in no time

Your email is getting blocked becausese your multithreading POP3 requests!

Well thanks once again for stating the obvious. Really what else can I say to this nonsense. I even suggested a solution to this (see below).

Next

Mail confirm & web2.0 registration don't have to work together in the same template, thats just a assumption, your making a feature request for a problem easy solved with a seperate template.

Let's say you create a template for any platform out there and you run your registration. At the moment ZP has to register and then run the email action for every site you want to sign up on. If you want to use one email to signup across all the sites you will be blocked out in no time and run into problems so you are forced to use a ton of emails to try and get around it.

Captain please read what I have actually wrote before spouting unrelated drivel. After you take a moment to read it again you will see it's explicitly discussing platforms. If I want to use one email to sign up to hundreds of sites (all using the same platform) then using the email processing in it's current state will get me blocked out in no time. There is no way around it. Separating templates won't do it, nothing will do it efficiently besides downloading all the activation emails with a pause every X emails. Unfortunately you obviously overlooked my suggested solution when you read my half read my feature request. It's OK I will quote it below for your convenience.

It would be so much better if you could run your registration template and when there are no sites left in your list to sign up on you would have your template run the email action once! How? It would login to your pop3 one time, find all the emails that match your 'how to find email' regex and then save them all to a list. After that we could just have ZP loop through and go to each line/confirmation link on the list.

But with that said I would genuinely love to hear you share all that POP3 expertise you have to easily solve this problem? Otherwise from now on keep your off topic unrelated comments to yourself please.