Is it just me that thinks this?

[Kepperbes]

Guys,

Is it just me, or does anyone else think there is some sort of conflict of interest between the customers and the staff selling templates? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate having Zennoposter, but when software support is also selling templates, it really makes me second guess sending in my templates when and if I need some support because I'm in fear that something private that I'm working on may later end up in the marketplace.

Now obviously I don't make the rules here, but over the course of the past few months us customers have seen some things that we really didn't want to see (although lately DarkDiver has been amazing with him trying to make Zennoposter better). It just kind of makes me wonder because there are several companies (and laws in place) that are meant to protect the consumer from this very thing.

I understand if Anton or HB need money and sell a template here and there to raise funds, but if that's going to be the case, I think it would be wise to have someone else provide support who doesn't sell in the marketplace to prevent conflict of interest with customers.

 

[amul]

I think its important for the whole community to support template providers.
Lets hope and pray that Zennolab creators do not knockoff any members templates.. IT would be a bad move.

Im sure they want a healthy ecosystem for their bot platform.

 

[shabbysquire]

I have also considered this & share your concerns, but there is no basis (or proof) that this is occurring. When I encounter a problem, I always send in a template that focuses on the actual problem (say a few steps/actions).

 

[shabbysquire]

I think its important for the whole community to support template providers.
Lets hope and pray that Zennolab creators do not knockoff any members templates.. IT would be a bad move.

Im sure they want a healthy ecosystem for their bot platform.

Agreed. IF this was happening and word got out, it'd be professional suicide as most black/grey/white hatter would go elsewhere for their automation needs.

 

[Kepperbes]

I have also considered this & share your concerns, but there is no basis (or proof) that this is occurring. When I encounter a problem, I always send in a template that focuses on the actual problem (say a few steps/actions).

I'm not accusing the staff of this happening (at least not at the moment), but what I am saying is that now that the staff are selling templates in the marketplace, it makes anyone else in the business of SEO, Link Building, or Template Selling a direct competitor of the same staff that were supposed to send our templates to for support. There is a MediaWiki template being sold in the marketplace right now (although its pretty old), what if that guy needed some sort of support because something was going on in his template and wanted to send it in? Welp now he's sending his template to his competition, so whatever functionality his template has that HB and Anton's template didnt have, then their template will have it shortly after. Another example is that their was a guy selling Google PVA templates in the marketplace, the staff red lighted that, then shortly after started selling a Google PVA template of their own. Now this part didnt really effect me because im not in the business of selling my Google PVA's, but it doesnt take a blind person to see that their is a conflict of interest.

In the business world (we'll take law for this example), there are laws set in place to keep this kind of conflict between providers and customers from occurring. If Jane and Joe decided that they wanted to go get a divorce, and Jane went to go see Larry the divorce Lawyer, then at that point Joe now cannot go see Larry the divorce Lawyer because he'd be in a direct conflict of interest to Jane if she decided to follow through and use Larry for representation (this is actual law, not speculation). There are plenty of other instances like this where the law keeps situations like this from even occurring.

Now I know that this may seem like im saying the staff is undercutting its customers, but that is not what I'm saying. What I *AM* saying though is that the potential is there for this to happen now, because the staff havent been selling templates until recently. Take Botmaster for example, while he can most definitely make some pretty sick (другой софт) mods and sell them if he wanted to, he doesnt sell those sick mods because he'd be conflicting with his customers (I actually spoke with him about this, and for those of you who've spoken to him, you know how difficult he can be, lol).

I dont have a problem with Anton or HB selling templates if they need the money. Im just saying that for the duration of time that they will be selling templates, I think someone should provide technical support who DOESNT sell templates so that it will prevent any misunderstandings, or any potential problems, because there is DEFINITELY some potential for things to go haywire.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Please explain.

over the course of the past few months us customers have seen some things that we really didn't want to see (although lately DarkDiver has been amazing with him trying to make Zennoposter better). It just kind of makes me wonder because there are several companies (and laws in place) that are meant to protect the consumer from this very thing.

 

[Drew]

Another example is that their was a guy selling Google PVA templates in the marketplace, the staff red lighted that, then shortly after started selling a Google PVA template of their own. Now this part didnt really effect me because im not in the business of selling my Google PVA's, but it doesnt take a blind person to see that their is a conflict of interest.

I thought I was the only one that noticed this and I found it pretty funny. Everybody ragged on him pretty hard and maybe 10 day's later we have prominent forum members selling the same thing.
I am pretty paranoid and I would never send in a template for help, you are better off describing your issue as best as possible in the forum. Maybe I am just too paranoid

Anyway I think there should be clear boundaries between staff and the marketplace, hopefully we never run into any ethical issues. Does the company have a set of rules for staff in charge of debugging regarding templates?

 

[Kepperbes]

Please explain.

Your only here to troll, go away.

 

[Kepperbes]

I thought I was the only one that noticed this and I found it pretty funny. Everybody ragged on him pretty hard and maybe 10 day's later we have prominent forum members selling the same thing.

Good to hear its not just me that thinks this. I'm sure that guy who was selling the Google PVA template before would definitely have some interesting input to give now considering the nature of how things turned out. The end result was the source being burned, which is exactly why most of us guys who actually used the accounts to help our business didnt want the method being sold on forums in the first place, but thats the nature of things when people start providing services and they want to make money from them.

I am pretty paranoid and I would never send in a template for help, you are better off describing your issue as best as possible in the forum. Maybe I am just too paranoid

I will admit that i've had some issues that required staff attention, but most of those issues were back when MP was first released, and everyone was in the process of figuring out what was what, but aside from that, i've never really had the need to send in templates.

Anyway I think there should be clear boundaries between staff and the marketplace, hopefully we never run into any ethical issues. Does the company have a set of rules for staff in charge of debugging regarding templates?

This is EXACTLY what i'm saying. There is a reason why laws prohibit this sort of conflict of interest from occurring in business, and I think that for business ethics, the staff should not be in the market place selling templates alongside their customers. Not only does that diminish the chances of one of their competing customers actually being able to successfully sell their template (see the Google PVA situation for an example), but it also makes a very risky situation when sending in templates to support because you never know whats going to happen once you've sent it in. Yes, the staff can say that they wont do that, but an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure, and in this case, prevention is necessary.

 

[rostonix]

Guys if you have real complaints about quality of support team's job feel free to write that directly to nuaru: http://zennolab.com/discussion/private.php?do=newpm&u=5 We always try to make our best at it.

I read BHW every day since 2009. Paid member there. I never heard or saw something from Zennoposter's users that I didn't already read on BHW. Ever. That's my personal experience.

For someone who work in Zennoposter everyday and has his own style it's hard work to understand logic of other users templates. And if you're advanced user you should understand that it's easier to create template that you need to support for yourself rather than copy someone's other. Especially new user's. Again: it's easy to check if templates are the same or not. And if you have any real assumptions please feel free to write that directly to nuaru: http://zennolab.com/discussion/private.php?do=newpm&u=5

If you truly believe that you template of project has information that is not available at public, If you find a bug there is no need to send all files. Information how to reproduce is pretty enough.

Marketplace is open for every user and you're totally welcomed to create threads there. If your real thread is not approved within several hours, feel free to write that directly to nuaru: http://zennolab.com/discussion/private.php?do=newpm&u=5

 

[Здраво]

I don't know what to say really, its the question of how zenolab making its business, I don't understand any of the movies they do, for me it doesn't seams really logical, but I guess its back to ethic. Maybe this is super cool to them in Russia so they look at us like we are retards to complain on something they find normal to them.

But again, there is a question of professional cleverness witch lack here in very big quantities - (you can't sell the product and expect success but not understood your targeting clients).

I actually bought the first template from "support" and from the start I was unsatisfied, but HB helped me quite a bit where I was hanging in there much more then he should, as we chat I realize he's grate guy, even I can say I like him. But some of the moves here are really bad, that's obvious - as you all know that template stop working after few weeks and in my opinion that hit the reputation of both HB and Anton for starter I will not buy from them anymore. Why? The answer is simple, you have reputation of your template stop working very quickly. I know they can do much better then involving themselves in things like Gmail PVA thingy.

The harsh reality its, there is nothing anyone of us can say to change anything in here, you can only accept what is or go away, Nuaru made that very clear in some of the posts here. You can like it or not but it is what it is. Personally I even like the slow support and bugs and missing features and this kind business politics, why? Well I would not had any reason to learn other things they push me to learn - who knows maybe they can see things from birds perspective and actually they realize higher purpose even when we normal humans are unable to connect the dots.

 

[Kepperbes]

Guys if you have real complaints about quality of support team's job feel free to write that directly to nuaru: http://zennolab.com/discussion/private.php?do=newpm&u=5 We always try to make our best at it.

I read BHW every day since 2009. Paid member there. I never heard or saw something from Zennoposter's users that I didn't already read on BHW. Ever. That's my personal experience.

For someone who work in Zennoposter everyday and has his own style it's hard work to understand logic of other users templates. And if you're advanced user you should understand that it's easier to create template that you need to support for yourself rather than copy someone's other. Especially new user's. Again: it's easy to check if templates are the same or not. And if you have any real assumptions please feel free to write that directly to nuaru: http://zennolab.com/discussion/private.php?do=newpm&u=5

If you truly believe that you template of project has information that is not available at public, If you find a bug there is no need to send all files. Information how to reproduce is pretty enough.

Marketplace is open for every user and you're totally welcomed to create threads there. If your real thread is not approved within several hours, feel free to write that directly to nuaru: http://zennolab.com/discussion/private.php?do=newpm&u=5

Anton, thank you for participating, glad to have some staff participation in this thread. After reading what you wrote, I can definitely agree that every user of Zennoposter has his/her own way of doing things. Ive been around the Zenno community for a while now, and have seen several peoples templates that all have the same goal, but have different ways about accomplishing those goals. Some peoples methods were really quick, simple, and to the point, while other peoples methods were more elaborate, with attention to detail, and error accountability. However, the point that im making is, is that no matter how different one persons way of doing things may be from another persons way of doing things, these things in most cases are kept private. This is the primary reason why most advanced users of Zennoposters dont share their templates freely with people. They dont want their more intricate, elaborate ways of accomplishing things to be accessible to those who did not put the necessary work in to accomplish those goals.

Now I'm not saying that you or HB dont work hard, because I know that it takes alot of work to really make a solid, functional template that accounts for all different types of things that can occur, however what I am say that it seems unethical for the same people who provide support, to be alongside competing with their customers in the market place. That would be like the manufacturers of BMW opening up a dealership right next to one of the Car Dealerships that they provide vehicles to (although they couldnt legally do this, because again, its conflict of interest). Here in this case the Zenno Support team are the BMW manufacturers, and we, the customers are the car dealership. That would be VERY unethical if BMW were to do that to its customers wouldnt you agree?

Considering that Nuaru and I have traded words in the past, im pretty certain i'm the last person that he wants to receive a PM from lol, but I am fairly certain he is very well aware of this thread, and im hoping that there is some sort of equal ground that can be established. As I mentioned before, I have absolutely no problem what so ever with you and HB selling templates, I just honestly think it would make people more comfortable (me especially) knowing that the people who provide me support wont also be competing against me in the marketplace, or the SERPs.

 

[marl0_stanfield]

Yea I can definitely understand the concern over methods getting stolen or even resold. One of the major draws to zenno is the fact that one doesn’t have to share their method with someone off a freelance site to be able to automate it fully. So yea ensuring safety of your template while sending it to support is crucial and I could see how this could hinder it.

 

[nuaru]

Hi guys!
Do not worry about that!
There are no many people who create and sell Zenno projects, and then still support them. Would love to have more of these vendors.

I let the guys from the support team to sell their projects, provided that these projects will not contain any secret ways to make money that could be stolen from somebody. Gmail creator and wiki poster has already been given to the public, nothing secret about them.
About the internals of these projects:
As rostonix has already said, easier to create a project from scratch than to take it from someone. Especially if it is necessary to support this project later.

As for the sale intsedent with gmail template: the situation where one of our client and HB with rostonix started selling gmail template almost simultaneously. The client thought that the guys had took his project and sold it. They actually did it for a few weeks, I knew about this project for a long time before intsedent happened.
We talked to this client and the situation cleared up.

In any case, if you are worried about your secrets, do not send the entire project to support, only parts of reproducing a bug or just ask verbally, perhaps a project is not needed to solve a problem.

Kepperbes, no hard feelings, if you have any questions that can be solved only by myself, send a PM or mail me, I'll answer anyway.

 

[lokiys]

Hi guys!
Do not worry about that!
There are no many people who create and sell Zenno projects, and then still support them. Would love to have more of these vendors.

I would love to get some reputation from zennoteam, like it is for OFFICIAL zennosupport. I'm not asking there some guarantees or something, but just example bellow my profile stars or something like that, i know there is many options for forum platform... Good option can be like ''Approved from Zennolab Support'' And to get this stars or something we should make some test template or any other rules But the point is to make that all template sellers at the same level (if they are). And not feel advantages for zennosupport... Because if honestly then i thought to stop template building when i saw zennosupport started to sell them...

I let the guys from the support team to sell their projects, provided that these projects will not contain any secret ways to make money that could be stolen from somebody. Gmail creator and wiki poster has already been given to the public, nothing secret about them.

There i would like to say that when you sell templates then you should think about what the fuck are you doing... Were that very smart to kill this resource for gmail sms verification ? ? ? Zennoteam was first who give this source to the public. And even now is in troubles because can not find new source to kill... One star less than me I even thinking to stop to build some web 2.0 for customers because they do not know what to do with them....
Wiki-poster looks good and no problem...

P.S Zennosupport deleting all messages from their threads if they do not like them...

About the internals of these projects:
As rostonix has already said, easier to create a project from scratch than to take it from someone. Especially if it is necessary to support this project later.

I'm not saying that understand another template builder logic is easy - BUT it is definitely worth to understand some parts from it.
This is my honest opinion i got some tips from some templates what is open source here and there.

As for the sale intsedent with gmail template: the situation where one of our client and HB with rostonix started selling gmail template almost simultaneously. The client thought that the guys had took his project and sold it. They actually did it for a few weeks, I knew about this project for a long time before intsedent happened.
We talked to this client and the situation cleared up.

That guy with gmail template waited 4 days to get thread approved... Meaning thread was approved same time when zennoteam finished gmail template...

In any case, if you are worried about your secrets, do not send the entire project to support, only parts of reproducing a bug or just ask verbally, perhaps a project is not needed to solve a problem.

Sometimes is easier to just sent all template to reproduce bugs. Basically this is easier in all cases. Because if i need to send part of it then sometimes i can not reproduce those bugs. Anyway this is not solution...

P.S
Some bugs i did not showed because of sending my templates...
I'm not thinking that HB & Rostonix will stole my templates but this principle... I even do not want to speak with my customers in forum PM

 

[Hungry Bulldozer]

Guys, we started selling our projects since there was lack of it. New customers come here to start using the software and there is not too many good stuff on the marketplace to pick up. Not everybody likes doing templates by themselves.
Btw, look at this perfect example how any user of the forum can have successful project selling: http://zennolab.com/discussion/showthread.php?7156-ZenBLOG-automatic-blogs-creator-poster-many-platforms
Does he have unbelievable reputation? No. Status? No. Is he hardworking? Yes.
So, I'm sure we all can cooperate in our market.
There is a good story on this topic. It is coming from a test on your ads skills.
There is Cola machine in the city center and it sells 100 cans of Cola per day. Pepsi set their machine near Cola. How many cans each machine will start selling? 100 cans per each machine! Win-to-win situation. That's not my idea, that's statistics.
So instead of arguing we can sell together and build a strong marketplace. It brings only more customers for each template provider.

 

[drvosjeca]

As for the sale intsedent with gmail template: the situation where one of our client and HB with rostonix started selling gmail template almost simultaneously. The client thought that the guys had took his project and sold it. They actually did it for a few weeks, I knew about this project for a long time before intsedent happened.
We talked to this client and the situation cleared up.

Well... this is not only shady thing which is related with gmail template...all started earlier when guy wanted to sell his gmail template (I think it was "icebox", not sure) and few of us, including rostonix himself told him that selling the source would not be smart, it is better to sell accounts or related service! This person did some thinking and have decided not to sell his template.

and what happened next???

Just shortly after they came out selling same template...

I dont know about you, but every normal person will see this as "rostonix just told him not to sell so he can sell his template"!

Incident with other guy waiting for approval of his sales thread is other storry.


I have been using same source, but I never thought about selling template because I knew what would happen... I rather enjoyed creating accounts and offering my service

Now I have 2 other sources which im using every day... they take little bit more time, but im still able to create 2000+ google PVA per day...and I would never even think about telling someone again what source im using!


From personal experiance I know that it is easier to build new template then adapt other people's work, but that is not it here... You dont need to take template, you just need the idea!

So point of this debate is that people are loosing trust in Zenno Support Team!


I personaly dont care about this but this is just what i can see from other people respond.

 

[Hungry Bulldozer]

I dont know about you, but every normal person will see this as "rostonix just told him not to sell so he can sell his template"!

We first were thinking about providing a service, but then it took to much time and I decided to sell it. So stop scolding Anton about selling it. It was my decision. If it was the fault then mine.

Incident with other guy waiting for approval of his sales thread is other storry.

I have been using same source, but I never thought about selling template because I knew what would happen... I rather enjoyed creating accounts and offering my service

That's cool - Earth revolving around ZennoPoster. Look outside It was shared on the BHW a few years ago

Now I have 2 other sources which im using every day... they take little bit more time, but im still able to create 2000+ google PVA per day...and I would never even think about telling someone again what source im using!

Gonna steal it, look out now

From personal experiance I know that it is easier to build new template then adapt other people's work, but that is not it here... You dont need to take template, you just need the idea!

Idea is nothing if you dunno how to realise it.

I understand myself being here now, but not you guys. It is Christmas, take it easy Merry Christmas! (We have Christmas at the 7th of January)

 

[drvosjeca]

Idea is nothing if you dunno how to realise it.

ah ah... A lot of guys can do it :p

(We have Christmas at the 7th of January)

same here

 

[Hungry Bulldozer]

ah ah... A lot of guys can do it :p

I'd better learn by clear text on the BHW or blogs than trying to understand a heap arrows connected in a clear logic to the author only. I do love ZennoLab forum, but that is not the only place where I spend time online Btw, if you care about the guy who sold gmail. Never seen his project. Never asked to sent ot anything about it.

 

[lokiys]

As usually everybody talking just form self point of view.
Basically as i see there is no point to talk anymore
Also about your statement we have Christmas holidays - support should work 24/7 - you can close your eggs shop for Christmas but not online business

Merry Christmas

 

[darkdiver]

1. Ever since the very first versions users were always afraid to send us projects being afraid of us using their secrets for making money. Now HB and Rostonix sell their projects and the same happens. There is always something to fear, even without selling projects. Someone is afraid that we can stick a Trojan to the exe file of ZennoPoster. Someone is afraid that we will use his ideas to make money by ourselves, etc. etc.

We have always said and now repeat that we don't use somebody else developments in our work and HB and Rostonix, as our staff, too. If you do not believe our word for it, just do not send us your secrets, not to think about the bad.

2. Nevertheless, Apple sells its software in their own App Store, and Microsoft has created Visual Studio, now they write their software on it and sell it.

3. We have long wanted to sell the projects on our own, but we do not have time for this. Well at least HB and Rostonix spend their own free time, and the market of projects is developing.

4. In the projects embedded system of the digital signature for EACH action. If you copy at least one action from another project, it will be in your project with the author's signature, to recopy a large project without a signature, you must manually recreate all actions, some actions can only be created while recording. In the near future we will add a possibility to see whose actions are used in the project.

 

[Hungry Bulldozer]

support should work 24/7

I handle emails while sleeping and my ZennoPoster template communicates with you guys in Skype

you can close your eggs shop

Yeah, I did. Lack of demand. Never try.

 

[lokiys]

HB - do not take it personally.

 

[amul]

As I suspected the Developers of this amazing BUILD-YOUR-BOT want to foster and care for Template market. Automating sites with this creative tool can be approached many ways and so multiple approaches for brand name sites like Youtube etc.. will exist and I think encouraged.

Now unfair advantages will also exist.. but there are a so many platforms and sites out there... I think as of now. This is not a big deal.
I'm looking forward to lots of templates.. with the ability to for premium version so I can pay to "look at source or method" and use it as a learning resource.


Especially complex socialBots designed for human-like social interactions on Facebake.com or Linkedoff.com etc.
Multi-Layered time delayed over 2-3 week sequences to "fool" or "spoof" social engagement using general questions and simplistic answers (think ROBOT Fake-Friends at scale)
ie: semi intelligent chat bot http://nlp-addiction.com/eliza/

Async SocialBots designed to create friends at Scale (several hundred thousand friends over 1-3 month timeframe)


Node-Based Socialbots or IntelligentAgents are next... I expect the Russians are already on this if so send me private alpha release ..
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/05/are-you-following-a-bot/308448/#
http://www.iftf.org/future-now/article-detail/social-bot-competition-2012/


Here is an excellent paper on this.
http://www.acsac.org/2011/openconf/modules/request.php?module=oc_program&action=summary.php&id=175
"Online Social Networks (OSNs) have become an integral part of today's Web. Politicians, celebrities, revolutionists, and others use OSNs as a podium to deliver their message to millions of active web users. Unfortunately, in the wrong hands, OSNs can be used to run astroturf campaigns to spread misinformation and propaganda. Such campaigns usually start off by infiltrating a targeted OSN on a large scale. In this paper, we evaluate how vulnerable OSNs are to a large-scale infiltration by socialbots: computer programs that control OSN accounts and mimic real users. We adopt a traditional web-based botnet design and built a Socialbot Network (SbN): a group of adaptive socialbots that are orchestrated in a command-and-control fashion. We operated such an SbN on Facebook—a 750 million user OSN—for about 8 weeks. We collected data related to users' behavior in response to a large-scale infiltration where socialbots were used to connect to a large number of Facebook users. Our results show that (1) OSNs, such as Facebook, can be infiltrated with a success rate of up to 80%, (2) depending on users' privacy settings, a successful infiltration can result in privacy breaches where even more users' data are exposed when compared to a purely public access, and (3) in practice, OSN security defenses, such as the Facebook Immune System, are not effective enough in detecting or stopping a large-scale infiltration as it occurs."

Anyway The BOTTOM LINE IS.
This is just the Beginning... of a new wave of intelligent agent/social Automation there is Plenty of room for growth, approaches and ideas..

Amul